The Multifaceted and Midlife World of Barbie Explored - Ep 62

Have you ever wondered about the impact of an iconic figure like Barbie on our self-perceptions, body images, and career aspirations for midlifers who were some of the first to experience Barbie? Join us as we navigate this fascinating landscape in our latest podcast episode. We reflect on the empowering message of the new Barbie movie and its depiction of career Barbies, who bravely assures girls that they can aspire to be anything - doctors, pilots, or even the president. We also grapple with the question of whether this movie sufficiently addresses feminism. And of course, we share our latest obsessions - a pink tumbler and a cheeky chickpea pasta called Bansa.

A candid discussion about the evolution of the Barbie brand, its moments of triumph and controversy, and the importance of representation over the years awaits you. As we delve into the movie, we explore the moment when Barbie meets Ruth, contemplating the intricate dynamics of mother-daughter relationships along with Gloria and her daughter too. You’ll hear about how Margot Robbie's ambition to work with Greta Gerwig led to a bold gamble. And just for fun, we ponder over what a midlife Barbie might look like. From career choices to body image, and from empowerment to societal expectations, this episode promises a riveting journey into the multifaceted world of Barbie.

Chapters

• 0:20 Barbie
• 9:04 The Barbie Movie and Feminist Empowerment
• 18:12 Exploring Barbie's Complicated Legacy and Representation

Transcript

Tish: 0:21

Hey Ellen, I wanted to see if you can stop over my Mojo Dojo Casa House so we can discuss a little pinkalicious Barbie movie today.

Ellen: 0:33

I'm still laughing about that Mojo Dojo, casa House, honestly. Well, let me put on my perfect pink preppy outfit and jump into my pink invertible and we can have a girls day tish every day. And we're here to discuss our love hate relationship with the world's most iconic doll of our youth and the movie Barbie.

Tish: 0:59

Okay, if I had to list my relationship status with Barbie, I think I would have to list it as it's complicated, so that's right. So, for women, our relationship with Barbie is just that it's complicated. It's as complicated, I think, as our relationships with ourselves and as we decide what our role is in this world.

Ellen: 1:26

Tish. I couldn't agree more, I think, for me. I'd add to it's complicated, to it depends what my relationship status is with Barbie and the new Barbie movie that you and I both saw in this last week. It stirred the pot a lot more tish.

Tish: 1:43

You know. So on the one hand, we have career Barbie telling girls they can be anything such as doctors, pilots or rock star, even the president of the United States and don't get me started about that incredible pink camper that I used to dream of taking off to exotic places with when I was young. And I also remember and I actually do remember the exact moment where I was changing Barbie's outfit and I looked at the naked Barbie and I said my body doesn't look like this. And it was really the first time I remember questioning my body image.

Ellen: 2:28

Wow, that's powerful tish, and I'm sure you were really young at that time, right?

Tish: 2:34

Yeah.

Ellen: 2:35

And so I think for a lot of us it could have even been more subtle than that. At that point too, I was really focused, though, on at like you, I had the dune buggy and the pop up camper. I dreamed of getting it for so long and I loved it. But I do remember thinking more like Barbie's freaky looking, and I forgot that she had all these friends Skipper, midge, tutie Allen I mean, I knew Ken but all of them their legs split in these bizarre ways. They all looked super crazy to me. So, yes, I remember that part too.

Tish: 3:19

So it kind of left me with this question. So does this new Barbie movie answer the feminism question, or does it raise the Barbie controversy all over again?

Ellen: 3:33

Good question. We are going to talk about this more and I can't wait. But you know, before we get there, we have to talk about my favorite part of the podcast, our obsessions, and I think do you have a pink obsession for me this week to go along with Barbie?

Tish: 3:50

I do, I do they. Amazon has the cutest little tumbler. I love to use the reusable tumblers, take them in the car, whether it's just my coffee or an ice water or something, and they have a really cute one, of course in sparkly pink, but it has that profile with Barbie in her ponytail.

Ellen: 4:16

Which is you, that's me, that's you. I love it. I know you're in sales and so you do a lot of driving and it would just make you happy, right, looking at that fabulous thing. Exactly Love it, love it. We'll put a link to that for sure.

Tish: 4:34

Now, Ellen, what about you? What is your obsession for this week?

Ellen: 4:39

My obsession for this week. I love how our obsessions are always so different. Let me start with that. But mine is called Bonsa and it's a chickpea pasta that I don't know if you've seen it. It comes like in a big orange box.

Tish: 4:55

I have seen it but I've never kind of pulled the trigger to try it.

Ellen: 5:00

Well, it's delicious. You know we're gluten free here in my house because a number of allergies to wheat and different things, and I have to tell you this pasta has 20 grams of protein and eight grams of fiber, so it's a winner in many ways. And I know a lot of people would be like what does it taste like? But it tastes really good and I love to make a pasta salad with this in the summer. So just throw in some mozzarella, some veggies, some chicken and really put some like a knife light homemade dressing on it, and I'm just encouraging people to try it.

Tish: 5:44

I was just recently watching this Steve Harvey I think I was a little bit old this little skit that he talks about gluten-free foods and he's like put the gluten back. I don't know what gluten is, but that has to do with the flavor and I think that was the when they initially started taking gluten out of foods. I think that was really the case. But you have found some amazing, great substitutes for common items that are now gluten-free, so I'm excited to try this one.

Ellen: 6:15

Try this one. I know I found a great tortilla that's made with cassava, this root flower, so I think it is. It's much different, you know, but if you just want to cut back and get some more protein in your pasta, bonza, and they even have a bonza mac and cheese, so a lot of things to use from, even for those college kids or people with small kids or grandkids who needs some mac and cheese in their house.

Tish: 6:45

Love it.

Ellen: 6:46

I know All right. So hey Barbie, hi Barbie, Hi Barbie.

Tish: 6:53

So anyone who hasn't been to the movie, they say it through the whole movie because you know there's more than one Barbie, there's more than one can. So they're always greeting each other with this very happy exuberant hey.

Ellen: 7:05

Barbie. I know it's so funny, so I just felt like we needed to start with this. But you know who thought in 2023, tish, we would be talking about Barbie and that a doll that was invented in 1959 would be popular, controversial, decisive. You know, it's everything right.

Tish: 7:28

It really is. It has been a real media frenzy and something I knew that we were both going to be talking about with our friends because, like I said, we have this real love hate relationship with Barbie.

Ellen: 7:44

I know I'd have to say a mid lifers were really some of the first people to play and have Barbie, and almost everyone I know had Barbie in our age group growing up, and even last night I had dinner with a friend and the Barbie movie came up in conversation, and, of course, the mojo dojo casa house. You know, though, having only boys, tish, we had these dolls and they were called groovy girl dolls and they were made out of fabric, but we didn't have any Barbie in my house. So I'm wondering did you let your kids play with Barbie and your daughter Mimi? Was she a Barbie girl?

Tish: 8:26

You know I bought my daughter Barbies but you know that was just not her thing. She was more about like stuffed animals and horses and things like that. She never really gravitated towards Barbie in any way. Just let it go. You know I didn't really push the issue. You know I tried to figure out what all the kids, what their thing was, but her thing was never Barbie.

Ellen: 8:55

Oh, that's interesting. My friend that I had dinner with last night, her daughter only wanted little horse figurines too. So I think it is really individual. But you know, I went to the movie with a couple girlfriends and neither of them let their daughters play with Barbies because of the way she looked, although both of them played with Barbies growing up. So I asked because I thought that was interesting. But when I went to the movie I had no expectations of the movie other than it would be some summer fun, great music and a spectacular romp through Barbie world, Right. And so I think that the movie was much more than that.

Tish: 9:36

So I went with two friends of mine and I really wasn't sure what to expect as well. My daughter Mimi, the one that didn't play with Barbie she had been and said it was wonderful. So I didn't let her tell me a whole lot about it, because I did want to go in with this fresh, you know outlook. But I put on my hot pink sweater and my hot pink shoes and I put my hair up into that big high you know Barbie ponytail and off to the movies. I went and I have to admit that I just loved the movie. It was jam packed with all kinds of great actors and a great feminine message.

Ellen: 10:16

Yes, I loved the feminist message and I was wrong. You're right. I mean, I really thought that the movie was just going to be silliness and I really enjoyed the movie and have been recommending it to so many people.

Tish: 10:35

You know, I really felt like the Barbie movie is a call to action to women to take charge of their power and their place in this world, and it showed what a world looks like Controlled by women. That's how we start off, and then it reminds us what it looks like when we have no power, and then it, and then the movie ends with and, and we'll give our opinions on how the movie ends a little later in the episode.

Tish: 11:07

We will you know, I'm gonna say just so you know, if you haven't seen the Barbie movie, there's some spoiler alerts going on here, but it doesn't even know it's still worth seeing.

Ellen: 11:18

Mm-hmm. Right, I agree we are going to have some spoilers, but even with that, go see the movie and you know what I agree, tish, with this question of Can we have it all? And did Barbies who could be astronauts and doctors and the president, you know, give, give us that, show us that, or did they set us up To really just be on a treadmill? And so I think that this whole expectation of being the perfect Barbie, maybe what started the hate part of our love hate relationship. What do you think about that?

Tish: 11:59

You know this question keeps coming up again and again and you know this idea of, basically, the pressure that we feel to be be it all, have it all, be perfect. It's a lot of pressure.

Ellen: 12:15

You know, absolutely tish, and I always talk about how my mom, suzanne, used to say that women in our generation really got a hard thing thrown at us that we could have a career, have a family, be successful, take time for ourselves, invest in our marriages, make perfect meals, have homes that look like restoration hardware and pottery barn catalogs. I mean, the pressure today is so intense and I think that's what the movie really Taught me or said to me, is that you know, in a way we were set up, weren't we?

Tish: 12:58

You know what? I'm going to agree with that and and I know this is kind of obscure, but I'm gonna blame it on Anjali fragrance, so I don't know, if you remember, you know where I'm going with this right. I do remember that commercial from the late 70s when you have the one I can fry it up in the pan. I can. Oh my gosh, how did it start off again?

Ellen: 13:27

It started off, but no, I don't remember how it started off, but the end was like and make it nice for my man right like there was a part of that.

Tish: 13:36

She can bring home the bacon, oh right, she can fry it up in the pan. She can never, never, let you forget you're a man, she's a woman, oh. It really was then, you know, and we we talked about it in other episodes, about, you know, the the eRA Movement and stuff like that, and this is the time that that was all happening, and it was just an idea that we should be Everything. Yes, that's a tall order.

Ellen: 14:05

It is a tall order and you know, for me, my favorite part of the Barbie movie Even though there were many was Gloria, the character played by America Ferrera. She has a monologue that Everyone has been talking about, and I'm just gonna read this one little part, because I think it's so powerful. You have to be thin, but not too thin, and you can never say you want to be thin. You have to say you want to be healthy, but you also have to be thin. You have to have money, but you can't ask for money because it's crass. You have to be a boss, but you can't be mean. You have to lead, but you can't squash other people's ideas. You're supposed to love being a mother, but don't talk about your kids all the damn time. You have to be a career woman but also look out for other people.

Ellen: 14:52

You have to answer for men's bad behavior, which is insane. But if you point that out, you're accused of complaining. And I'd have to say a few other things. Tish, and You're supposed to stay pretty for men, but not so pretty that you tempt them too much or that you threaten other women because you're supposed to be part of a sisterhood. I mean shit, she nails it there, tish. Let's unpack that a little bit.

Tish: 15:14

How can you even, how can you even live up to Val, that it's, it's, it's a we're? I think we're set up to fail with, with that expectation, we're truly set up to fail, mm-hmm. So the movie, for me, takes on this misogynistic status quo and really challenges it. And why have we, as women, accepted this? We see in the movie when Barbies some of the Barbies get brainwashed and they go along with giving away their power over to the kens, mm-hmm. But then, slowly but surely, they're freed from their brainwashing and they have this awakening and they take back their power. So to me, this is Every woman should be, should be asking herself this question why have we given it? Why have we relinquished our power?

Ellen: 16:11

You know, tish, this is such a great question and it takes me back to our ERA episode where the wife I think of John Adams, when he was going off to Philadelphia to write the Constitution said don't forget about the women. And of course they did right. They left us out of the Constitution. But it's this idea of toxic masculinity too. When the Kents took over power, they were rude, they were insulting, they wanted to be weighted on and they really were not smart like the Barbies, but yet they were in control. I mean, what an allegory here for how I think you and I both see life right, and I love this thing that Ken dated and of course he is being played marvelously by Ken states with his bare chest and a fur coat on in his mojo-dojo-casa house, which looked like a fraternity to me. And you know like he said. To be honest, when I found out the patriarchy wasn't just about horses, I lost interest. I mean, come on, barbies, let this dude take over Barbie world. What the hell.

Tish: 17:31

Yeah, that was Ellen. All I can say is I hope women see this Barbie movie and it motivates them to take back their power. And there's a lot of ways we can do that. But it's really within our control and I think that to me was the message of the movie that the power is there for our taking. You know.

Ellen: 17:59

And again he talked, we could and to give up, and to give up, and to give up, yes, and don't give it up, is the message there totally to me.

Tish: 18:08

Yes, you know, Ellen, I wanted to chat about the female director Greta. Gerwig and her take on the movie and the evolution of the Barbie brand in general and the different moments of triumph and arguments. So she agrees that Barbie is complicated and there is also a generational story of a mother and daughter, as the creator, ruth Handler, made Barbie for her daughter.

Ellen: 18:40

You know I loved this part of the film Tish. It was like this magical little dream world when Barbie meets Ruth and we don't really know who Ruth is At least I didn't get it right at the beginning, but she played by Rhea Perlman and I just have to say I love that actor. She is just amazing and she speaks so kindly to Barbie and she really gets Barbie thinking. I would say she's like Barbie's Oracle in the movie and I see this whole mother-daughter. I don't have a daughter, but it made me think of my relationship with my mother as well when I saw this part of the movie.

Tish: 19:26

You know, I love the moment when she said I can't control you any more than I can control my own daughter. I named you after her, barbara, and I've always hoped for you, like I hoped for her. Well, mother stands still and our daughters can look back and see how far they've come.

Ellen: 19:49

You know, I think that's really powerful Tish, and that's why when. I, when I think about how my mom felt like our generation really got the shaft, our generation of women, you know. I think of her standing there and thinking that we have come a long way, but yet we haven't.

Tish: 20:10

You know, and you see, you see that dynamic unfold with the mother daughter, like in the movie. The daughter doesn't have respect for the path that her mother's gone. You know, that's right, and they get there. They get there, and I think you know those of us that have daughters it's the same thing like it. Well, not just daughters, but just children in general. That you know, I think when our kids are in those teen years, they discount us, you know, and then and then, as they get older, they start to see, kind of, you know, that path that we forged in front of them and how, what things we've opened up for them, and sometimes, when they're in teen mode, they're not. Yeah, it's true.

Ellen: 20:58

I think they did a great job with Gloria America for her and her daughter in the movie, really portraying to that that time when, as mothers, we long for kids to be young again on some level. Right, it was like oh, remember that the days when you played with Barbie, they were easier. They were easier days than the tween days and it's true whether you have boys or girls. There's definitely a lot of friction there during that time and I do believe people feel really strongly one way or another about Barbie and over the last 60 plus years she has ignited conversation about Bennett feminism throughout time and maybe that is Barbie's legacy tish for us.

Tish: 21:46

You know the thought that a toy, a doll, is relevant in conversation and and so indicative of of what our society here in the US is all about After 64 years, like wow, yeah, I know right, and I and I think the way they handled it in the movie tricky, you know very tricky, as we said, complicated, and it depends, right.

Ellen: 22:19

You know, one thing I learned is that Margot Robbie, who plays Barbie beautifully and was one of the film's producers, and she was the one that really wanted to work with a credit girl wig as the director because she admired her works for so long and they really felt like their task was to honor the Barbie legacy while still having this really culturally relevant conversation that you and I have been having today. And I know that at one point Greta was afraid it wasn't the right project for her, but so happy that it worked out.

Tish: 22:54

You know it was a risk. It was a big risk for her because Barbie is complicated and controversial. So I had watched this YouTube video of Margot and Greta and they talked about doing this movie where they were simultaneously terrified yet intrigued, and even around the reservations that Greta had in. What they referred to is the sticky moments they had with their talks with Mattel. I mean, they had to have Mattel's buy-in to all this and what a risk for Mattel and this Barbie brand of 64 years and what they were going to do with that in this movie. How do you honor it but still respect it?

Ellen: 23:42

Yeah, yeah, I enjoyed that YouTube conversation too. You had sent it to me, but I have to say I loved Will Ferrell's portrayal of the head of Mattel they were. They took such a fun tongue-in-cheek, slapstick kind of attitude towards this and it impressed me that Mattel went with it right and I think that says a lot about Very much so. Yeah, a lot about the work that Margot and Greta did in order to really put that piece into the movie. So I'm going to ask you a question here. Tish and I think this is relevant for us mid-lifers.

Ellen: 24:27

If Mattel were to make a midlife Barbie, what would she want her to look like?

Tish: 24:34

Wow, you know, ellen, that is such a great question. So for me, I'm going to go back to that moment where I looked at Barbie and said I don't look like this and I would want midlife Barbie, yes, to look great, right, but I've got wrinkles and I want Barbie to have a couple wrinkles. They even talk about that in the movie where Barbie sees an old woman for the first time and she's wrinkled and you know, heavier and thicker and her hair is gray and Barbie goes you're beautiful, and the woman goes yeah.

Tish: 25:12

I know Like, of course I am, and it's true.

Ellen: 25:17

I like that part too.

Tish: 25:19

We don't always embrace our imperfections, or or are I shouldn't even say imperfections we don't always embrace the changes our bodies take at midlife. So if I, I would love to see a midlife Barbie that was a little thicker in the middle, a couple, a couple wrinkles here and there, throw some grays at the temple. But somebody who really represents that combination of I can be successful. I don't have to be perfect. I can still look great, I can still be vibrant, I can still have it all, but I don't need to be perfect. Doing that, that's my midlife Barbie. What about you? Would you would? Yours would be hiking Barbie, I think.

Ellen: 26:18

My pickleball racket.

Tish: 26:19

Mine would be a pickleball racket.

Ellen: 26:21

I'm sure you would be pickleball Barbie and I would be hiking Barbie. You know, Tish, I agree with you almost everything you said there. I think it's like, I mean, we're always saying 50 is the new 40, 40 is the new 30. So I don't think that midlife Barbie would look like a grandma Right, I think, starting with that she. But she would look real and she wouldn't be perfect, because by the time you get to midlife we're not perfect in our bodies and we do have some wrinkles. So I would want to see her just be a little more real. I mean, Barbie isn't real. To begin with, I think they've extrapolated her waist would be like, you know, 16 inches or something if she was real. But you know, I think there can be a midlife Barbie that really takes it on and shows how great midlife is. Right, Tish?

Tish: 27:16

Yes, yeah, I mean, barbie boils down to this. It's a personal negotiation within each woman and it's going to be sticky and it's going to be messy and it's going to be complicated, because we women are sticky, messy and complicated, but all women have some aspects of Barbie in them and maybe the real struggle is how much Barbie and which Barbie are we? So this is the damn time that we accept and embrace our inner Barbie and wear that hot pink proudly and put our hair up in that high ponytail, if you can, and just like the movie ends, and we should worry less about looking perfect. Still go after those corporate jobs and power professions. But, as they say, maybe every night doesn't need to be girls night. You know, it's true, and I think the message, or at least the message I was left with, is maybe we need to find a balance between striving and settling.

Ellen: 28:40

I really like what you're taking away from the movie and I think I just want to add to that, tish, that it is this balance right, and I think it, to me, is the not needing to be perfect. Barbie is perfect right. She was more than perfect, as I just said, none of us have bodies like that. But to me, again, it's accepting the good and it's leaving what doesn't work for us and what worked for me about Barbie so much was the idea that women can be anything. So embrace who you are physically, we're all beautiful in some way and take the idea that we can achieve anything we want, and to me, that's the Barbie message. It's not about beauty or your body, it's about the ability to go anywhere and do anything in life and truly to not give up our power to anyone male, female, a boss, a sister, a friend, right To really know yourself. So those are the things that I'm taking away with it, in addition to what you are.

Tish: 30:00

I love that. Well, before we wrap up, I wanted to send an extra big shout out. You know we always say we have listeners from all over the world, but I want to highlight some of the countries that listen, that tune into us, and I find this so exciting. We have listeners from Japan, australia and Sweden, and I want to send a big shout out to all of you. Make sure you're sharing the podcast with your friends. Stop by the positivelymidlifepodcastcom and we love having you part of our midlife tribe here in our mojo-dojo, casa house.

Ellen: 30:41

Our digital online mojo-dojo, casa house right hey. I just also want to give a shout out to Patreon. If you love our podcast, you can be a patron and you can do that for as little as three, five or 10 dollars A month. You get a exclusive quarterly Zoom with Tish and I where we talk about some fun things and some interesting things and get to meet you. So if you haven't checked out our Patreon page, it's in our show notes. So until next week, bye Barbie, Bye Barbie.