Ep 96. Advocating for Your Health Susan Salinger's Call to Action in her book Sidelined

Have you ever felt sidelined in your own healthcare journey? Susan Salinger, the acclaimed author of "Sidelined: How Women Can Navigate a Broken Healthcare System," joins us to shine a light on the intricate challenges women face in the medical world. Through her compelling stories and the candid revelations from her research, Susan guides us through the maze of decisions that can either empower or hinder our health. We kick off the conversation by diving into the powerful personal narratives that shaped her book, including a cautionary tale about an unnecessary surgery, reminding us of the importance of self-advocacy and informed decision-making.

We've all had that moment of hesitation at the doctor's office, wondering if we should voice our concerns or just tough it out. In today's heart-to-heart, we confront this very hesitation and the alarming trend of women deprioritizing their health. Susan urges us to break free from the silence and shame surrounding our medical discussions, exploring the critical role of clear communication and why having a health advocate can be a game-changer. We also tackle the complexity of seeking second opinions without fear of offending our doctors, and share how a list of symptoms can be your strongest ally in a consultation.

Wrapping up, we explore the nuanced dynamics between female patients and their doctors, pondering whether gender plays a role in the quality of our healthcare. Susan imparts her wisdom on the importance of finding a medical professional whose practice style aligns with our needs, and she candidly shares how her journey as an author has emboldened her to own her health narrative. This episode doesn't just shed light on the issues – it hands you the tools to carve out your path to better health, underscored by Susan's infectious energy and the empowering message that taking control of your healthcare is not just necessary, it's your right.

Obsessions:
Tish: 
Ellen: 

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:21

Welcome back to the podcast. Today we have special guest Susan Salinger, who is the author and researcher behind the book Sidelined how Women Can Navigate a Broken Healthcare System.

Speaker 2: 0:34

Sidelined is a book that examines the many ways in which some women manage, and sometimes mismanage, their own health care.

Speaker 1: 0:45

You know, tish? This book opens with a great quote from one of my favorite and, I think, your favorite writers too, maya Angelou, and it says I'm interested in women's health because I'm a woman. I'd be a darn fool to not be on my own side, and all I can say to that is truth, truth, truth.

Speaker 2: 1:04

Absolutely. You know, susan's book explores how women we seem to simultaneously tend to be extremely conscientious about taking care of ourselves, yet at the same time we inadvertently undermined our own healthcare. So Salinger's research revealed how conflicted many women are about the medical decisions that they end up ultimately making.

Speaker 1: 1:36

Wow, this is going to be a great conversation, but before we get to Susan Tish, you know I love this part of the show. It's our obsessions. What do you got for me this week?

Speaker 2: 1:47

Okay, now you're you're you're going to love and hate this one, okay. Okay, we need, we need to start thinking about bathing suit season. Right, I know it might seem a little premature for some, but we need to start thinking about this. And you know, at this point in our lives we need a little premature for some, but we need to start thinking about this. And you know, at this point in our lives we need a little, like you know, pull and tuck and all these right places right to make us feel good and look good. And you know the brand Cupshe has a tummy or one piece tummy control. Has a nice deep V, has a double strap, so it's a little interesting at the top, has ruching along the sides, so that's like very body-friendly. They refer to it as the holy grail of the MomBod. Flattering swimwear and some of these you know that are compression. They're very expensive. This comes in under $35. And we're going to have a link and it has gorgeous colors.

Speaker 1: 2:50

Wow, all I can say is you had me at ruching and technical control.

Speaker 2: 2:59

Okay, Ellen, you always have something very different because we never share our obsessions with each other before we get on. So one of these times we're going to be doing the same thing, but it hasn't happened yet. But what is yours, Ellen?

Speaker 1: 3:11

Well, and this week is no different. My obsession is this 23-inch shell lamp and I know I've already shared it on social media with our followers. But I love that kind of coastal vibe, coming from New England and the East Coast, you know, and even though I'm in California, I kind of have a little bit of a beachy thing going on in my house and when I saw this lamp I could not resist. It's beside my bed right now and it is so sweet. The base is hundreds of tiny little white shells and as a white um, a white lampshade, and it can go anywhere. It could go in a living room, even a kitchen, a bathroom, hands down, the cutest thing I've put in my house and, again, a great price point.

Speaker 2: 4:02

I love some beach chic going on, not the kitschy kitschy stuff you know with with, you know putting what a fishing nets and stuff, but just that little elegant, little touch that just brings you back to a moment that you spent at the beach. So love that one, love that pick, for sure.

Speaker 1: 4:20

Yes, and as always, we will have links to our sessions in our show notes and I'm sure you can find them all over our socials. Okay, so let's get to this week's episode. I want to welcome our dynamic guest, susan. She was born and raised in Los Angeles, attended UCLA, studied English a woman after my own heart. Now, in her 80s, susan lives in Northern California to be near her incredible family, her daughters, her grandchildren. She comes with a cat named Max and a dog named JD, and when she's not speaking about her book or spending time with her family, you'll find Susan power lifting to stay in shape, I know right Susan

Speaker 2: 5:04

welcome, I think that's why she looks so young. That's why she looks so young and she's so vibrant.

Speaker 1: 5:11

Welcome to the show, Susan.

Speaker 3: 5:13

Well, thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here and I love my. Well, I don't love my power lifting, but I do love what it does for me. It's just so darn boring, but that's a whole nother thing.

Speaker 2: 5:23

I do love what it does for me it's just so darn boring, but that's a whole nother story. Okay, well, susan, I really want to get right into this. What prompted you to write a book like Sidelined, and why is this book should be on every woman's bookshelf.

Speaker 3: 5:41

Well, the story about why I wrote it truly was a little bit of a journey, to put it mildly. But gosh, many years ago, I think I was in my 20s or 30s and, as you said, I'm 80 now or 81. So it was quite a while back. But I agreed to have some surgery that I knew I didn't need. I had switched medications. I started having some symptoms. It was totally obvious to me that it was the new meds that were causing my issue. And the doctor said, no, it isn't. And he did a bunch of tests and found nothing. And he said we really have to do exploratory surgery. And I did push back a little, even at that age, and I said well, why don't we just, you know, go back on the old meds? I mean, let's find out? No, no, no, no. He was, I think he was really worried about ovarian cancer and if he'd been right he would have saved my life, except that he wasn't right. And so I did agree to the surgery. I had it, everything, nothing was wrong, you know. And I went on, I was working, I had little kids, etc.

Speaker 3: 6:43

And then, like 100 years later, my husband and I sold our business. We had been in business together and I retired for about three seconds. I don't know what I was thinking. That was a really bad idea, but anyway I did and my family said if I didn't go do something they were going to kill me because I was driving everybody crazy.

Speaker 3: 7:02

So I went back to school and just by happen I really went back to take either more English or some psych classes, and I couldn't get into either. So I ended up in anthropology, which I had never taken as an undergraduate and I just loved it. And for one of my classes I did a project and I have no idea why, but I did a project on women who have had hysterectomies. And I have no idea why, but I did a project on women who had had hysterectomies and, much to my surprise, a couple of them had also agreed to that surgery, which was irrevocable, even though they didn't think they needed it. In fact two of them swore to me, looking back, that their symptoms were just premenopausal, but here they had had this hysterectomy.

Speaker 3: 7:39

So that really, you know, triggered my own memories and it all came flooding back to me and I just wondered how, as women, we make medical decisions. Why do we keep doing this? And that was really the impetus for the book. I interviewed about 60 women, and all with different diseases. I called them women's diseases I mean autoimmune, because mostly women get them whatever different. But what I was looking for were the behavioral I guess changes and what the women had in common, and they had many things in common that influenced their decisions and I was really surprised and I think that, as women, we all need to be aware of some of the things we do to ourselves and I'm not blaming women, I don't mean it that way but we do them unconsciously and we do them inadvertently and I think that it does present some obstacles for our health.

Speaker 2: 8:37

I would have to agree. Your book doesn't blame. It empowers women to make stronger decisions for themselves. So I absolutely agree. You came across not in blaming like women, but empowering women.

Speaker 3: 8:52

I'm so glad to hear that truly because I don't blame women at all.

Speaker 1: 8:58

I agree, susan. It definitely empowered right from the first page. And can you share a little bit more about the interviews or kind of the focus group format, and how did you get women to be so forthcoming?

Speaker 3: 9:15

You know, they were all so eager to help. It was truly lovely and I'm even finding that on my second book Women really want to help other women and everybody was so generous in sharing their stories. I found the group of the basis of, or most of the women I guess I interviewed I just found over the internet I went to like support groups and I don't know a bunch of others, and this was, you know, a few years ago. So I went to their homes which I probably wouldn't do today actually, and interviewed them in person. And I think when you, when you talk to people face to face, you can get a lot of information. I mean, interviewing is just it's. The trick to interviewing and to get such intimate information as I did is I learned that the trick is not to interview people you know, interview people you don't know, because I had one woman say to me well, she was telling me something sexual and she said, well, I might as well tell you this I'll never see you again. And she was right, I've never seen her again, you know. I mean it was and it was. It was so generous of her, truly.

Speaker 3: 10:20

But the focus groups were fascinating and I'll tell you about those. First of all, the way I put together a focus group is I did two of them and I just threw money at the problem. I hired a focus group company and before I knew it I had two focus groups. But the point of my point in doing that was to get women from diverse geographical backgrounds. Since I was in LA, I didn't fly all over the country, but what I found out in the focus groups which was not my intention was that so many of the women felt so much shame about being ill and I had noticed that in my interviews as well, but I hadn't focused on it in the same way.

Speaker 3: 10:59

But in both focus groups very few of the women had talked with anyone else about their illness other than their doctor, and they were all so grateful to be there because, much to their surprise, they all shared the same issues. They hesitated to get second opinions, they waited too long to go to the doctor, stuff like that. So it was eye-opening for me. I'm a talker, as I'm sure you can tell. I love it. But I mean you'd ask me how I am and I wonder how much time you have, because I'll just tell you everything. But most people apparently are not that way, and so the focus groups were a real revelation, and, as women, we need to talk to each other more. I mean, that was the lesson I learned from the focus group.

Speaker 1: 11:44

We all need support. We do, and you know Tish and I both had moms. I think that waited too long or really put doctors up on pedestals around health issues, and I'm hoping that Tish and I have learned something from that too. Right Like that, each generation really can grow around that. Wouldn't you agree with that, tish?

Speaker 2: 12:09

I do, but I know for me personally I still have some growth to make.

Speaker 2: 12:14

I still allowed myself to be pushed around recently, because I think when you're at your most vulnerable it's hard to be strong, and I think having somebody whether it's a daughter, a friend or something like that to help prop you up is oh so important. But what I loved about your book, Susan, was you kind of detail six common decisions that women make that inadvertently may lead us to undermine our own health, and I would love to kind of we're going to go, Ellen and I will go back and forth talking about each of them and I would love for you to share kind of your thoughts on what we do and maybe what we could do. And the first one is no surprise at all we put others first. We're just born and bred that way, right, yeah, we are.

Speaker 3: 13:11

But I know I'm interrupting you, which is probably for a guest, but I want you to cut yourself some slack on what you were just saying about your own diagnosis, because it is very hard. Not only are you vulnerable when the doctor says or starts to push you around, but you also want an answer. You want some relief from your symptoms. And so easy to fall into the trap of well, he may be a jerk, but maybe he has the answer and I'll go home and take two pills and call him in the morning and feel better. I mean, I'm not sure. I think it's just really hard is what I want to say for all of us, myself included. But to answer your question now, women do put themselves last. In fact, there was a really interesting study done which I must admit was really not a surprise where researchers gave women a list of five things to prioritize. You know, what would they take care of or what would they put first? And of course, most of them almost all put their children first.

Speaker 3: 14:08

Second, they put their pets, which I just loved. Third, they put their elderly parents, and I was thinking to myself as I read that here I'm an elderly parent and if my kids put their dog ahead of me, I mean I'll kill them, anyway. Fourth, they take care of their significant other. And fifth, we take care of ourselves, which is last.

Speaker 2: 14:30

And what?

Speaker 3: 14:30

happens is we delay going to the doctor and because we're busy, we have projects at work, we got to make lunches, the kids got to play at school and one of my interviews, as a matter of fact, a woman had a I keep saying mastectomy and that is not what she had. She had a mammogram and I do that every time but she had a mammogram and the hospital called her. They wanted her to come back. That looked like there might be some problems with it and she meant to go. She really did, but it was raining and her husband was out of town and she couldn't get childcare, and, and, and, and, and, and. Now she has stage three breast cancer and it's you know, it's got a long road ahead of her. So don't put it off. When you put things off, when you put yourself past like that, a minor problem easily becomes a major one. So I think that that's just something to remember.

Speaker 1: 15:18

And it's so true, susan, I see so many of my friends doing this. I happen to be in the camp of I like to go to doctors and get data, which Tish and I completely again opposites here, opposites on this, but I know I'm unusual in that and I'm like, oh, give me that data, sure I'll take that test. Yeah, I think. The second thing I think we wanted to talk about, though, is that, as women were too quick to defer either defer to the doctor or to a protocol.

Speaker 3: 15:55

Correct. I think that what happens, and at least in my research, when I researched this, the research said that women were more hesitant than men to get a second opinion. I'm not sure that that's still true, but we certainly are hesitant. Whether we're hesitant more than men is irrelevant anyway, I suppose. But we don't want to be rude, we don't want to question the doctor's decision and it's a pain in the ass to get a second. You know you got to ask your first doctor how they feel about it, because you don't want to upset them, but you need to. You kind of want their recommendation. In fact there's a chapter in my book on second opinions that tells you how to get one.

Speaker 3: 16:38

There are some techniques that you should utilize, but I think that the first hurdle to overcome is to get one. And now that I've had that surgery, I could have gotten a second opinion. I mean, I could have gotten an old medication I wasn't going to keel over in a week and I could have gotten a second opinion. I mean it was not an emergency but, like most of us, I just said, oh sure, whatever you, you think, and that's not a good thing to do, I don't recommend it.

Speaker 1: 17:09

Yeah, I mean one of my best friends.

Speaker 2: 17:11

she allowed her sister to say oh, don't get a second opinion, you're going to hurt the doctor's feelings and she has stage four cancer. Right, and I begged her sobbing and crying just go to the cancer center. You have a cancer center down the street, go there.

Speaker 1: 17:37

I tried to explain.

Speaker 2: 17:38

But she was so convinced that she didn't want to hurt this very nice doctor's feelings. And right before she she finally did go to the cancer treatment center. But before, right before that she told them that she was going. They said, yeah, we've never had a cancer like yours.

Speaker 1: 17:58

Wow.

Speaker 3: 18:00

Well, you know, this is interesting. I was on a show with a doctor and she was telling me, but I've had two people tell me this Two doctors tell me that number one they like second opinion. Not every doctor does these two happen to, but they said, for one thing, it confirms what they thought or not. And you know one thing that everybody should, should, know and I'll get to the second thing they said in a minute but is that? You know, a doctor sees what they expect to see. So if you take the same symptoms to a psychologist, they're going to tell you that there's stress.

Speaker 3: 18:33

A gastroenterologist could tell you well, you know, you're having stomach aches. A rheumatologist will tell you that you're in some pain, whatever. So I mean they all can be totally competent. It's not about the doctor. So there's a reason for a second opinion. But the thing the doctor said that struck me the most is it. It helps them in a malpractice suit because if there's a second opinion that agreed with them, and now there's two opinions, they have a much stronger defense against any yeah, problems. Yeah, I never looked. Everybody seems to think of a second opinion as a confrontation. They were looking at it as a collaboration and that's a hell of a difference.

Speaker 2: 19:10

I love that and I think that's what you should. You should say to a doctor look, I'm not looking to confront you, I'm looking to collaborate and you know, reaffirm what, and you know, reaffirm what you're seeing. And anyone who's confident in what they do should never, ever, be afraid of that.

Speaker 3: 19:31

Well, and I think too that if you do have a doctor that objects to you getting a second opinion and it's serious, I mean like cancer or surgery then you might want to think about changing doctors. That's how strongly I feel about it.

Speaker 1: 19:45

I agree, susan, I agree, and I think everyone should read that part of the book. I mean, I had asked for a second opinion for something with one of my kids and I went about it in a very incorrect way. Once I really understood this and the doctors, they like data, they're very data driven, and so I agree with you that you know, any doctor that doesn't welcome one is probably not a doctor. You, you know, you want to stay with, but there also are great ways, as Tish said, to ask for it, and so anyone out there, any of our listeners that are thinking about this, don't shy away from it. Definitely read that part of Susan's book. I think it's chapter two. I mean I put it up. Yes, it's very, very near the front.

Speaker 2: 20:36

Now this one, like we had talked about it a few minutes ago where the other thing that we tend to do is we blame ourselves for getting sick yes, yes, as if that's going to do us any good you know that I, that is, that is the.

Speaker 3: 20:54

The. The know, that is what I guess. What I found that surprised me the very most, because I don't do that when I'm sick. I am pissed. I'm pissed at the world. I don't care if it's a cold or I can't bear being in bed. I mean, there's so much to do, places to go, people to see, but everybody was so ashamed. Here's what they did, which I felt was just so like. I wish they all had cut themselves some slack. So many women, from breast cancer to lupus and even endometriosis. They thought that their illness was due to their stress, that they were so stressed out that they couldn't handle their lives.

Speaker 3: 21:34

So when they got sick, if they told anybody it was like they were advertising to the world how they just couldn't manage things. So they became very ashamed. That was the main reason women in the focus groups didn't share, because they didn't want people to think that they couldn't manage things. I mean, it was just amazing to me.

Speaker 1: 21:56

Wow, that is amazing to me because, like you, susan, I've never blamed myself for getting sick, but I think shame runs deep, right Across many different parts of our lives, and so now that you bring this up, I can understand that and a lot of women, I do think, always feel stress and then go to that spot would blame stress.

Speaker 3: 22:23

Yeah, I think what's important to recognize and I did not realize this until I did the book. But illness is so random, you know, I mean, think about it, which I never had, frankly, but some people get COVID and some don't, and some alcoholics get liver disease and some don't, and some smokers get lung cancer. I mean, sometimes it's the luck of the draw, it is what it is, and genetics plays such a powerful role. My father-in-law, you know, died about 85, I think he was. He ate nothing but red meat, never exercised, hated vegetables but was green, he just pushed it, wouldn't even let it be on his plate. I mean, he did everything wrong according to all the current research. But you know, there it is. It's random.

Speaker 1: 23:12

Yeah, no, go on, I'm sorry no, I, I was gonna say I think that's the part you know. For some women I feel like, yeah, we understand the randomness of it, but if we haven't taken good care of ourselves, that's where the shame piece, I think, can come in strong.

Speaker 3: 23:30

Yes and I, but in all honesty I think it comes in regardless.

Speaker 3: 23:34

I mean there were people that said, like you're just saying, maybe I should have napped more, maybe I should have napped less, maybe I should have gained 10 pounds or maybe I should lose 10 pounds, I mean, but they did. But the reason they were blaming themselves is because they felt they had no time to take care of themselves. They were just too busy. It boiled down to I have to take care of themselves. They were just too busy. It boiled down to I have to take care of everybody but myself. Which just takes us back to chapter one.

Speaker 1: 24:02

Right Takes us right back to the beginning. Next time we'd love to just chat a little bit about how women do speak a different language than our doctors many, many times. And there's a statistic that 45% of women diagnosed with autoimmune diseases were labeled as chronic complainers. And I've been very open that I have Hashimoto's, which is an autoimmune disease, and it's true. There is this piece of not wanting to seem like a whiner around. I'm fatigued, I feel, you know just a lot of fatigue. I don't have a lot of energy and, again, I do think women really pull back from that.

Speaker 3: 24:48

Yeah, I think what the research showed and I'm certainly guilty of this myself is that when women go to the doctor and, as I said, I truly do this I tell them everything. I mean it's not just that my throat hurts, but that it's hard for me to drive carpool and I miss work because I have temperature again, and, and, and, and, and, and. By the time I'm done, my physical symptoms can actually get lost in the morass of my emotions, you know.

Speaker 3: 25:15

Men are much more objective, much more sustained. They seem to from what the research says, and I hate making general statements, but men seem to have a more, a different approach. They look at it as a problem the doctor and I are going to solve together, so they're more sustained. They're more objective. Doctor and I are going to solve together, so they're more distinct, they're more objective, whereas women go out and spill the whole thing, which can lead us to a more psychological diagnosis. That can't. That's, I think, one reason. Many times women are sent home with antidepressants or whatever, because they've told the doctor how stressed they are. And they are, I mean.

Speaker 3: 25:50

I don't mean that they're not but, may not be the stress, may not be what needs to be treated. There's an organic. There's very possibly an organic cause as well.

Speaker 2: 26:02

Yeah, we did a different episode specifically on autoimmune and her recommendation was to take the emotion out of it. The emotion out of it Just like and pre-plan what you're going to talk about and just have like bullet points of symptoms and not talk about the emotional things that are wrapped around all that so the doctor can see directly into you. Know, again, it's about that which you're speaking to. It's about talking the same language they're talking.

Speaker 3: 26:36

Yes and no, because I don't think I agree. I know where she's coming from and I certainly agree partially with that. But I think it's also important to tell the doctor how you're feeling, because I mean, the catch-22, or the tricky part is here that women do suffer from stress and depression and anxiety more than men do, and the doctor does have to make a decision as to whether are you? How do I know if I'm sick, if I, if my hip hurts because I'm stressed, or am I stressed because my hip hurts? Um, if I don't tell the doctor what's going on, I think think it's trickier for them. I want them to know me and I don't complain. So when I come in with a complaint oh, she never does that I want them to sit up and listen.

Speaker 2: 27:26

So anyway.

Speaker 3: 27:27

I'm not 100% sure I'd agree with that and I'd like to skip. You know, interrupt me if you'd rather stick to the program. But I'm very interested in what she said about coming in with a list of symptoms, because that is that would be the most important piece of advice that I could give you.

Speaker 2: 27:46

In fact, we were talking about because our obsession, my obsession that week was a medical planner which allowed you to start documenting symptoms that you're having, especially your chronic stuff, as well as your medical history. But we were talking about it especially in the context of medicine is a business and your time you have this much time with the doctor and you got to make the most of every moment.

Speaker 2: 28:10

And you've got to make the most of every moment so to just, you know, kind of speak to them in a way that they can hear you most effectively by talking about symptoms and not the emotion around it which sometimes takes over and you don't, you never get to the symptoms. And so the doctor, that's all they have, Absolutely. You know they're going to say antidepressant, because all they've heard is stress, stress, upset, ideal. They haven't heard the symptoms.

Speaker 3: 28:43

Yeah, that's absolutely true, and I think it's so important to go in with a written list because that way the doctor can review it. The same doctor that liked second opinions was saying she loves it when patients come in with a list and prioritized, and she said that sometimes the last thing she'll feel is the most important and it gives them a chance to it just helps you focus the whole visit.

Speaker 1: 29:14

I agree, and I also think this idea of the medical plan or really tracking helps you before you go in.

Speaker 1: 29:21

be like you know that happened four times in the past four, three, two months, two weeks and it really does help keep you on track with a doctor. I know that just last on our list of these six things is that we're too quick to reach for a pill, and I think that again, tish and I have talked about this in the past that a lot of times there isn't a pill, just a single solution. This is something that's much more holistic.

Speaker 3: 29:50

Yes, and rather than quote the data at you, I can just tell you two experiences I've had with being too quick to reach for a pill, neither of which were were any doctor's fault. But this was this about two years ago. I woke up. I've never had any pain. I'm just really, as I said, it's genetics. I don't feel pain. So I, I feel it, but I, I just don't have it.

Speaker 3: 30:13

So I woke up with a sore thumb. I mean just silly little thing, and I thought, eh, it'll go away. But it didn't. So a month later I mean because I, you know, when you write these books you have every disease that you read about so I decided I had bone cancer or something. So I went, finally decided to go to an arthritis doctor. I started there because I felt too stupid to go to an oncologist with a sore thumb. So anyway, she took an x-ray and everything and she said yes, you know, you have arthritis, here is a pill, et cetera. You know, take this and the pain away. And so I said OK, but you know, I'm on Lexapro for depression. My husband recently passed away, so I need the Lexapro. Will they interfere or interact with each other? And she said no, you're absolutely safe, no problem.

Speaker 3: 30:58

So I trot home and because of the research I've been doing, and I looked up the Lexapro and whatever her pill was and she was mostly right and there was a 99% chance that there would not be a problem. But there was a 1% chance some people had gotten brain bleeds from the two pills together. So my point on that is I had to weigh the risks and the benefits. Did I want to risk a potential brain bleed? I admit I probably wouldn't have gotten it, but somebody's the 1% right and is it worth taking a pill like that in order to save one thumb? I've got 900 liters, you know. So I just threw the pills out and the thumb is now fine anyway. And you know, that's story number one do your research.

Speaker 3: 31:46

And the second thing just happened yesterday. Actually I'm on, I was on lipitor for high cholesterol and I'm also taking Lexapro and blood pressure medication and everybody said there's no, you know no worries. So I looked up. I haven't been feeling quite right. I've got pain from in my hip, which I know now is the Lipitor, and the Lipitor happens to interact with my blood pressure medication. It's a moderate interaction and with some of the symptoms because I've been waking up really depressed and it's the combination of the two. So I mean long story short, I'm getting off of everything but the blood pressure. But the point is you have to do your research, the doctors, and they don't always tell you or they may not know.

Speaker 1: 32:31

They may not know, yeah, and you know what's right for you. I think this is the empowerment piece that Tish mentioned right up front. Some people may say that 1% chance is worth it, but for you you're like, clearly this is not worth it for me and I think it's kind of that self-awareness and empowerment that I'm really taking away from this piece of the conversation.

Speaker 3: 32:56

Absolutely. And the other thing I hope everybody will take away is that it's so important to get on your computer and research it. I mean I just put in Lexapro and Imolipine, or however you say it, and a whole bunch of stuff came up.

Speaker 3: 33:09

I mean, it wasn't a tricky research job. Let me just add that at the back of my book there is a huge resource list, which is, in my opinion, the most important part of the book. I tell you how to research. I've done it for you, really. I give you the websites you need to check your diagnosis or to check the medications or whatever Anything you want to know. There'll be something back there that will help you do it.

Speaker 1: 33:35

Oh, I love that. We'll make sure that we put a link to that too, if we can, but really important for our listeners. I know, tish, you wanted to talk about this. Nice Girls Finish Last.

Speaker 2: 33:46

Oh yeah, I love when I saw chapter two with Nice. Girls Finish Last that. So explain what you meant by that for our listeners well, that's the second opinion thing.

Speaker 3: 33:58

Like your friend, if you hesitate to go to the doctor or in her case she didn't even get a first opinion but by trying to play nice and not hurt the doctor's feelings, you know, we're taught to play nice, we're taught to be rude.

Speaker 3: 34:13

We never take our ball and go home. You know we stay there and try to make it work. And that's what I meant by that, because with your health, with medicine, that's not a good, that's not a good MO. You know it just isn't you really want to. How do I say this?

Speaker 3: 34:30

I think if I got a serious diagnosis from a doctor, the first thing I would do and I think this is so important and I'll go back to your question, I promise, because it's all related but the first thing I do is to ask the doctor to write down the name of my diagnosis so I can go home and look it up and have him or her spell it so that, because my spelling is terrible, that, and have them for her spell it so that, because my spelling is terrible. And then I want to know, for example, is are? You've seen a lot? I know you're experienced. You've seen a lot of patients with these symptoms. Have they all had disease x? So now when I go home maybe he'll say no, well, you know, some of them have had disease y.

Speaker 3: 35:10

So now I have two things I can look up and I don't want to finish last so now I'm going to go back to the doctor and I'm going to say you know, let's get a second opinion on this. I see what you're saying. It could be x, it could be y, what do you have? Anybody that you recommend that you think could? Could you know, agree, disagree, confirm, whatever word you want to use, because otherwise you will finish last. Because what I didn't know is there's about 40,000 diseases out there and those are just the ones we know about, and so many of them, particularly in autoimmune I'm sure your other guests mentioned this mimic each other and there's no definitive test. You can't just get a blood test sometimes and know what you have. So it's really important to track all of this and know if something feels right to you. Go with your gut.

Speaker 1: 36:02

I love that. You know, just chatting about this reminds me of that old Seinfeld episode. I don't know if you were a Seinfeld lover, Elaine. You know she gets labeled as difficult and then the doctor won't listen to her. You know, and I think a lot of women carry that fear forward and I really like that we're talking about in your health and advocating for yourself. Nice girls finish last. You have to be willing to. You know, be difficult if that's what it takes, or be perceived as being difficult, right, Be perceived as being difficult, because really I don't I mean, unless you're rude or something that it isn't, you know and I think that it's really important to you.

Speaker 3: 36:49

You've only got the one body take care of it. Do what you think is right for it. I did have one of my people that I interviewed said she'd never get a second opinion. She was so afraid that the doctor would label her as difficult and put in her record and that would follow her, you know, throughout her career medical career so to speak.

Speaker 2: 37:07

Now I also think this kind of goes a little hand in hand that sometimes women will tend to downplay what their symptoms are. Yes, and this is so. This could be so, so dangerous for us. So if you could speak a little bit about that phenomenon, why do we do this?

Speaker 3: 37:28

Well, I think we do it. I think number one we do do it. My research has showed that many women minimize their symptoms more than men do, actually, and I think that we do it because we don't want to. We don't want to whine, we don't want to look like complainers, we want to be the doctor's friend. So if we're a good patient, maybe they'll pay more attention to us, take more time, spend, take more care, whatever, and I think that that, again, is not necessarily the right motive.

Speaker 1: 38:02

I agree, Susan, and I'm wondering did your research or do you feel that women should seek out female doctors? Do you feel like women have an easier time talking to a female doctor or can advocate for themselves?

Speaker 3: 38:17

better, and that was one of that's the question I'm always asked, and when I began the research the jury was still out. It didn't seem to matter. But the latest research does seem to show that women do better, particularly if it's a female disease, if it's endometriosis or whatever. Women are better off with other women, with women doctors. But the caveat to that is men and women doctors have different practice styles. A male doctor well, you'll have a shorter appointment time, for example, with a male doctor.

Speaker 3: 38:54

A woman doctor will spend more time with you and on the surface that may sound lovely, but if you're in a rush and on your lunch hour you're going to want to run in and run out and just get the COVID shot or whatever you're going to do. You're not going to want to run in and run out and just get the COVID shot or whatever you're going to do, you're not going to want to be so. It kind of depends also on what your time schedule is, what you're, what you need. But I and my frankly, my, all of my, my doctors are men and women, and I have one male doctor that I talked to for a long, long time and I have another woman doctor that says hi, how are you? I? You, I go fine and we move on. So it just depends on the doctor too.

Speaker 2: 39:30

Yeah, yeah. You have to have a good rapport with them to be able to kind of get to the heart of things again, like we keep saying, in a very quick, you know manner.

Speaker 1: 39:45

It's true. I've never had anyone I know say that they wanted shorter visits. Well, I also think, though, knowing all of this information, susan, that we've talked about, even like Tish with her medical organizer, when you feel? More empowered and aware. I think the timing can be faster. Yeah, Wouldn't you agree, Tish?

Speaker 2: 40:15

Absolutely, absolutely. And then, when you're organized that way too, you don't forget, like you don't leave. And 20 minutes later oh, I forgot to tell him about this like a major symptom, and I've been teaching my kids this for a while write it all down when you walk in. If things you start to go in a different direction, you have it all in front of you but you know I wanted to ask this question, susan, because I know we're getting.

Speaker 2: 40:41

I could go. We could talk all day. I swear we could talk all day, I swear we could. But what has this book taught you about yourself?

Speaker 3: 40:49

You know it's taught me a couple of things. On a personal note, it's taught me that I am a writer, and the reason I say it that way is we my husband and I were in the film business. We made training business films for like, sales, training, customer service. I'm the one that wrote the scripts. We had manuals, workbooks that went with them. I was the one that wrote that. But I never considered myself a writer, I considered myself a businesswoman, and it wasn't until I went to UCLA and then the anthropology department was so kind to me they probably thought what's this little woman doing there? But so they were so nice to me and they kept telling me what a great writer I was and I thought well, you know, I'll try it.

Speaker 3: 41:30

They. And when the book came out and and people have learned so much for it and I'm so happy about that, so the one that it taught me, almost, I guess, a new identity, or confirmed an identity I didn't even know I had. But the other thing it really did teach me was to do my own research. It's my like I said it earlier, it's my body and I don't want to take the pill and get a brain bleed. I, you know, and I I don't want to take Lexapro if it's going to, or Lipitor if it's going to interfere with my blood pressure. That's my decision and I'm not willing to suffer the side effects. I mean, it's a. So I've learned to do my research, to do, and if I had the doctor did not tell me I don't know that he knew, and that's why I think it's so important to be in charge of yourself, be in charge of your own body, and that's what it taught me.

Speaker 2: 42:23

Do you think that's your big piece of advice for women is to take control of doing your own research.

Speaker 3: 42:33

Yes.

Speaker 2: 42:33

Vetting what you're being told.

Speaker 3: 42:35

Well, that's what you're saying with your medical planner. You're taking control of the visit because you're helping to focus it. And if you go home and look up what you've got and the most important question is, what else could this possibly be? So it's never just one one, one one disease. I mean there's a thousand out there that it could be. What are the two really realistic possibilities? I mean, my son could have been bone cancer. It's silly and it makes a funny story.

Speaker 1: 43:01

But it's good. Right, you know yeah, yeah, most definitely. You know, Susan. We also love to ask our guests what their superpower is, and can you share that?

Speaker 3: 43:14

Gosh, I never thought of myself as having a superpower. I love the question and I don't want to just answer off the top of my head, but I think I would say I have an awful lot of energy. That, right at 81, I'm very grateful for. At 25, I probably would have really gotten on your nerves, but at 81, it's really been a good thing for me. And the power lifting, the exercise I think it's really weightlifting. I've learned that power lifting is a little different. I don't know, I'm this little old woman and I can just bench press a lot, but I enjoy it and I think it's helped me maintain the exercise, maintain the energy. So I think that's what I would answer. I might want to call you back and give you a different answer.

Speaker 1: 44:06

Think about that. Think about it would answer. I might want to call you back and give you a different answer. Think about it. We could definitely put it in our show notes. Well, this has been an incredible discussion today and, as Tish said, as we kicked it off, every woman I know needs to read this book. Right, tish?

Speaker 1: 44:23

Absolutely this book right, tish, absolutely. Before we leave today, we'd like to take a moment to welcome some new listeners. We have some new listeners from Tampa, florida, from Ithaca, new York, and from Sugar Creek, ohio. So thanks to everybody who's continuing to join and hear our weekly show and discover us on our socials we just want to put it out there to join the mailing list. We send out a monthly newsletter with a lot of fun and new information. You can do that on our website at positivelymidlifepodcastcom. So thanks everyone for joining us today to learn from Susan to hear about her book on how to empower you to be in charge of your body and make the best healthcare decisions for you. So till next week, midlifers, have a great week.